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	<title>Comments on: Trading In My White Hat For a Black One</title>
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	<description>Featuring news, opinion and commentary related to the industry of search engines and marketing.</description>
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		<title>By: stockuptrend</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-529</link>
		<dc:creator>stockuptrend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-529</guid>
		<description>Blackhat is scary because nobody wants to get banned by Google. I didn&#039;t even realize you could get black listed from the ping service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blackhat is scary because nobody wants to get banned by Google. I didn&#8217;t even realize you could get black listed from the ping service.</p>
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		<title>By: black hat</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>black hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-258</guid>
		<description>More and more people are turning to black hat, who cares about google, they think they own the internet - can&#039;t you see what they are up to - they want those people who are investing money on their websites to have not other option but to use crappy adwords, and we know how much that costs. Get a black hat, fill their damn search engine with spam and don&#039;t pay for any adwords, adwords are a con, what it comes down to at the end is which webmaster is willing to pay the most for a keyword - which means which webmaster is willing to work for the smallest profit, which means its like gambling for the webmaster but google has no risk at all. Black hat seo websites are filling the internet because they actually work.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More and more people are turning to black hat, who cares about google, they think they own the internet &#8211; can&#8217;t you see what they are up to &#8211; they want those people who are investing money on their websites to have not other option but to use crappy adwords, and we know how much that costs. Get a black hat, fill their damn search engine with spam and don&#8217;t pay for any adwords, adwords are a con, what it comes down to at the end is which webmaster is willing to pay the most for a keyword &#8211; which means which webmaster is willing to work for the smallest profit, which means its like gambling for the webmaster but google has no risk at all. Black hat seo websites are filling the internet because they actually work.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-257</guid>
		<description>Everyone is always looking for ways to rank better in Google, trying to figure out the innumerable facets of their ever-changing algorithm. Now they give a clear cut method, and everyone is up in arms. Why? Because they phrase it in terms of penalty, rather than benefit.

Just call rel=nofollow &quot;GoogleTagToHelpMeRankBetter&quot;-and it would be much more popular---a white hat way to rank better!

There are a lot of other things you can do to attempt to manipulate PageRank, and all you hear about them is &quot;If you do that, just don&#039;t get caught!&quot; Everyone knows what&#039;s &quot;wrong&quot; with manipulating PageRank---if it gets out of hand, the index is devalued. Google has put the most impressive collection of brainpower ever gathered in a public company to keep the index clean and of high value. Search is not a trivial problem to solve, and Google does it better than it&#039;s ever been done.

People are also mad that Google added to the purpose of rel=nofollow over time. Fine. Use an robots.txt blocked intermediate page instead. No one is forcing use of rel=nofollow---it&#039;s a convenience.

And it&#039;s always been the case that some of what you do to optimize for one search engine will not help/may hinder optimization for another search engine.

And, frankly, if you&#039;re aware of the problem, and you can&#039;t think of a way to make your paid links look &quot;natural,&quot; optimization isn&#039;t really something you should be messing around with.

My problem is that sometimes it&#039;s nice to make something look like a paid advertisement and have it pass page rank, when it isn&#039;t paid. Remember all the &quot;ads&quot; to help people donate after Katrina, or the tsunami? I had no problem &quot;recommending&quot; (passing PageRank) to the Red Cross at the time. (Now instead of an ad, you have to do a sidebar column article, or text link, or some such.)

Google has shown that giving great search results &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; rocket science, and I&#039;m grateful for what they&#039;ve done. The quality of their search results is what has made the internet such a life-changing part of modern culture. Giving savvy webmasters who buy and sell ads the opportunity to improve their placement in search results by adding rel=nofollow to paid ads really seems pretty straightforward to me.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone is always looking for ways to rank better in Google, trying to figure out the innumerable facets of their ever-changing algorithm. Now they give a clear cut method, and everyone is up in arms. Why? Because they phrase it in terms of penalty, rather than benefit.</p>
<p>Just call rel=nofollow &#8220;GoogleTagToHelpMeRankBetter&#8221;-and it would be much more popular&#8212;a white hat way to rank better!</p>
<p>There are a lot of other things you can do to attempt to manipulate PageRank, and all you hear about them is &#8220;If you do that, just don&#8217;t get caught!&#8221; Everyone knows what&#8217;s &#8220;wrong&#8221; with manipulating PageRank&#8212;if it gets out of hand, the index is devalued. Google has put the most impressive collection of brainpower ever gathered in a public company to keep the index clean and of high value. Search is not a trivial problem to solve, and Google does it better than it&#8217;s ever been done.</p>
<p>People are also mad that Google added to the purpose of rel=nofollow over time. Fine. Use an robots.txt blocked intermediate page instead. No one is forcing use of rel=nofollow&#8212;it&#8217;s a convenience.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s always been the case that some of what you do to optimize for one search engine will not help/may hinder optimization for another search engine.</p>
<p>And, frankly, if you&#8217;re aware of the problem, and you can&#8217;t think of a way to make your paid links look &#8220;natural,&#8221; optimization isn&#8217;t really something you should be messing around with.</p>
<p>My problem is that sometimes it&#8217;s nice to make something look like a paid advertisement and have it pass page rank, when it isn&#8217;t paid. Remember all the &#8220;ads&#8221; to help people donate after Katrina, or the tsunami? I had no problem &#8220;recommending&#8221; (passing PageRank) to the Red Cross at the time. (Now instead of an ad, you have to do a sidebar column article, or text link, or some such.)</p>
<p>Google has shown that giving great search results <i>is</i> rocket science, and I&#8217;m grateful for what they&#8217;ve done. The quality of their search results is what has made the internet such a life-changing part of modern culture. Giving savvy webmasters who buy and sell ads the opportunity to improve their placement in search results by adding rel=nofollow to paid ads really seems pretty straightforward to me.</p>
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		<title>By: David Wallace</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wallace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-256</guid>
		<description>laef wrote:

&quot;How does google make the differnece between a natural link and a paid link?&quot;

None of us know for sure. I assume they try to do it algorithmically maybe by looking for html text that marks the links as sponsored (e.g. sponsored links, advertisements, etc.), run of site links, links to sites that are irrelevant of site that is linking, etc.

They also rely on tattle-tales and having access to inventories of sites that sell text links such as text Link Ads, who I might add now hides their inventory from public view.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>laef wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;How does google make the differnece between a natural link and a paid link?&#8221;</p>
<p>None of us know for sure. I assume they try to do it algorithmically maybe by looking for html text that marks the links as sponsored (e.g. sponsored links, advertisements, etc.), run of site links, links to sites that are irrelevant of site that is linking, etc.</p>
<p>They also rely on tattle-tales and having access to inventories of sites that sell text links such as text Link Ads, who I might add now hides their inventory from public view.</p>
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		<title>By: laef</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>laef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-255</guid>
		<description>How does google make the differnece between a natural link and a paid link ?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does google make the differnece between a natural link and a paid link ?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Heil</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Heil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-254</guid>
		<description>Well sure; but no &quot;proof&quot; is necessary if you are Google. It&#039;s their search engine and algo, so they can do as they please just like you can do as you please with your website. :-) You either play by their rules to get &quot;free&quot; referrals, or you don&#039;t.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well sure; but no &#8220;proof&#8221; is necessary if you are Google. It&#8217;s their search engine and algo, so they can do as they please just like you can do as you please with your website. <img src='http://www.searchrank.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  You either play by their rules to get &#8220;free&#8221; referrals, or you don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-253</guid>
		<description>I agree with you (Doug Heil) is not controlling anyone.  They are however, &quot;telling&quot; (though more &quot;writing&quot;) webmasters what to do with their websites.  No other search engine that I can think of requests that you change your HTML for them.

Wikipedia (may not be the best source) does say that the nofollow attribute is a &quot;non-standard HTML attribute.&quot;  So now one company is requesting people make their code not up to the agreed upon standards.  What if another company creates a search engine and says that the &quot;nofollow&quot; tag violates their webmaster guidelines?  Suddenly people are forced to choose sides?  That doesn&#039;t seem right.

I don&#039;t have a problem with hidden links or text since it&#039;s 99% purposeful.  It&#039;s also 100% provable that it&#039;s &quot;hidden.&quot;

I have a blog that&#039;s in a certain niche.  However, I have friend that run websites in a separate niches.  So I have a blogroll for that niche and then I have another section of &quot;Friends&quot; for those websites. I can easily see why Google might think that these are paid links.  Google can&#039;t also assume that every webmaster knows what a &quot;nofollow&quot; is.

This is what it comes down to...  Google can PROVE that hidden links and text exist.  They CAN&#039;T PROVE that money has exchanged hands.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you (Doug Heil) is not controlling anyone.  They are however, &#8220;telling&#8221; (though more &#8220;writing&#8221;) webmasters what to do with their websites.  No other search engine that I can think of requests that you change your HTML for them.</p>
<p>Wikipedia (may not be the best source) does say that the nofollow attribute is a &#8220;non-standard HTML attribute.&#8221;  So now one company is requesting people make their code not up to the agreed upon standards.  What if another company creates a search engine and says that the &#8220;nofollow&#8221; tag violates their webmaster guidelines?  Suddenly people are forced to choose sides?  That doesn&#8217;t seem right.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a problem with hidden links or text since it&#8217;s 99% purposeful.  It&#8217;s also 100% provable that it&#8217;s &#8220;hidden.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have a blog that&#8217;s in a certain niche.  However, I have friend that run websites in a separate niches.  So I have a blogroll for that niche and then I have another section of &#8220;Friends&#8221; for those websites. I can easily see why Google might think that these are paid links.  Google can&#8217;t also assume that every webmaster knows what a &#8220;nofollow&#8221; is.</p>
<p>This is what it comes down to&#8230;  Google can PROVE that hidden links and text exist.  They CAN&#8217;T PROVE that money has exchanged hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Heil</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-252</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Heil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-252</guid>
		<description>Yes; that is true annon, but if the links are not made to &quot;thwart&quot; their system, then you should not have a problem putting them in a redirected page first, or using a nofollow tag, right?

And yes; you will then tell me that Google should not &quot;control&quot; us or the internet.

Google is NOT controlling anyone, nor are they &quot;telling&quot; anyone what to do. You can do as you damn well please. At the same time, Google can do as she damn well pleases as well. It&#039;s fairly easy to understand. :-)

Google states to not use hidden text or links in your content as well. It seems that some SEO types are saying that Google should not be stating anything at all as that would be &quot;telling&quot; webmasters what to do.

Websites have always had the choice on whether or not to abide by stated search engine guidelines. That hasn&#039;t changed since day one.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes; that is true annon, but if the links are not made to &#8220;thwart&#8221; their system, then you should not have a problem putting them in a redirected page first, or using a nofollow tag, right?</p>
<p>And yes; you will then tell me that Google should not &#8220;control&#8221; us or the internet.</p>
<p>Google is NOT controlling anyone, nor are they &#8220;telling&#8221; anyone what to do. You can do as you damn well please. At the same time, Google can do as she damn well pleases as well. It&#8217;s fairly easy to understand. <img src='http://www.searchrank.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Google states to not use hidden text or links in your content as well. It seems that some SEO types are saying that Google should not be stating anything at all as that would be &#8220;telling&#8221; webmasters what to do.</p>
<p>Websites have always had the choice on whether or not to abide by stated search engine guidelines. That hasn&#8217;t changed since day one.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-251</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just amazed that everyone is considered guilty until proven innocent.  On many links Google has no proof that money has exchanged hands.  Also, since when is 15 year standard of linking sudden considered against the terms of use?

Google shouldn&#039;t tell how to code their websites.  Google is a little arrogant thinking that links are made just to thwart their system.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just amazed that everyone is considered guilty until proven innocent.  On many links Google has no proof that money has exchanged hands.  Also, since when is 15 year standard of linking sudden considered against the terms of use?</p>
<p>Google shouldn&#8217;t tell how to code their websites.  Google is a little arrogant thinking that links are made just to thwart their system.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Heil</title>
		<link>http://www.searchrank.com/blog/2007/11/trading-in-my-white-hat-for-black-one.html/comment-page-1#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Heil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://174.133.136.242/blog/?p=439#comment-250</guid>
		<description>That might be true if you had stated that buying and selling links was done for some other reason. You didn&#039;t say that. You said it was done to &quot;improve serps&quot;. If that is what you were buying/selling for, then that has &quot;always&quot; been search engine spam and has not changed.

I&#039;m wondering why people &quot;just now&quot; are surprised that Google is Finally cracking down on search engine spam? I know that we, (the forums) have been discussing this for at least 3 years now or so... maybe longer... since the Massa fiasco, I think.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That might be true if you had stated that buying and selling links was done for some other reason. You didn&#8217;t say that. You said it was done to &#8220;improve serps&#8221;. If that is what you were buying/selling for, then that has &#8220;always&#8221; been search engine spam and has not changed.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m wondering why people &#8220;just now&#8221; are surprised that Google is Finally cracking down on search engine spam? I know that we, (the forums) have been discussing this for at least 3 years now or so&#8230; maybe longer&#8230; since the Massa fiasco, I think.</p>
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